Community's balance changes wishlist

Over the 2 weeks preceding liberty day 2019 i’ve worked towards making a list of balance changes, i’ve updated it with my thoughts post-update and i’d like to share it with you.

In order to obtain this list i’ve first collected the community’s thoughts (alongside my own) on each weapon and stratagem, then i’ve removed all ideas that were contested, thus leaving out only the balance changes that the vast majority of players would agree with.

All suggested changes will focus on number tweaks and/or recycling assets over adding new mechanics, in an attempt to make them more feasible to implement in future updates.


Community-approved changes (changes the vast majority of players should agree with)


  • AD-289 Angel

While it’s true the angel has been buffed, the healing it provides is too limited, making it an inferior choice to the SH-20 when the goal is to improve survivability.

Good ways to further buff this stratagem would be to keep the healing amount the same, but making it heal more per second: currently it heals with 1/15th the speed of the rep80, if it were to heal for less time but at a similar rate then it’d be a nice consideration as a way to quickly get up after being downed.
Alternatively improving the reload speed or how much healing is handed out with a full reload would be good buffs too.

The angel should outshine the SH-20 when the player is able to take non-fatal damage consistently.
For example it’d be reasonable to expect the angel to keep you topped off while running through the line of fire of a hulk/warlord, while it won’t do much against hunters sniping you off.

  • FLAM-24 Pyro

Currently the worst weapon in the game due to its range being extremely limited, low magazine size and low damage output, it excels against no specific enemy and is always a worse option over the Peacemaker.
For comparison, the Pyro deals 300 dps (including the fire DoT), Singe deals 425 damage/shot and liberator deals 1.100 dps.

The best way to buff it while keeping the flavour of the weapon may be to massively increasing the damage, essentially turning it into a blowtorch. A 5x damage multiplier would make it match the liberator, 3-4x plus added magazine size would make it an interesting choice.

Other players have suggested giving it the FLAM-24 treatment and making it spawn fiery puddles on the ground.

  • MC-109 Hammer

Currently the worst vehicle by far: really quick but with negligible firepower and squishy.

The best way to make this vehicle more compelling would be to make it cooldown based (180s) rather than single use, making it a very interesting alternative in snow maps to move between objectives.

Alternatively buffs to firepower and armor would be necessary to bring it in line.

  • Thunderer Smoke Round

Even after lowering the cooldown to 100s the general consensus is that it’s still too much given the effect.

One approach would be to simply lower the cooldown to match the static field, making it viable in order to cover reloads of heavy weapons, objectives and downed teammates.

Alternatively turning it into a wave-based stratagem like the thunderer would also be an interesting solution: 3 waves of 3 rounds each (much like the regular thunderer) would make it last much longer and cover a wider area, making it worth the lenghty cooldown.

  • Orbital Laser Strike

Currently severely underused, mainly due to the lengthy cooldown.
Simply lowering it from 180s to 120s would make it much more appealing.

  • Sledge Precision Artillery

Currently severely underused, mainly due to the lengthy cooldown.

Lowering the cooldown from 120s to 90s would make it a weaker airstrike with significant auto-aim.

  • Railcannon Strike

Currently kills all non-boss enemies in the game with the exception of behemoths who survive with exactly 200 health left.

Adding 200-250 damage to it would make this stratagem much more compelling against bugs.

  • MG-105 Stalwart

Currently struggles to keep its damage up as a significant amount of bullets is wasted whenever a player starts firing, making it less appealing than expected.

Buffing its COM damage from 100 to 120 would make it much more interesting, rewarding players who fire for longer and taking advantage of the bigger magazine.

  • SMG-34 Ninja

Currently the ninja is in a very weak spot since the Knight deals almost twice as much damage while also offering crowd control. The ninja has a dps of 880.

Ways to buff it include adding unstoppable rounds or increasing the damage substantially (a 35% damage buff or greater would be interesting).

  • LHO-63 Camper

This weapon is in a weird spot, especially since the dum dum has been buffed.
There are a fair bit of weapons that fit the sniper playstyle: Justice (to a degree), Paragon, Railgun, Gunslinger (and now the dum dum) all feel more interesting than the camper.

Justice and railgun have unstoppable rounds, the former can deal with groups better as it’s also an assault rifle, while the railgun offers more damage and superior crowd control.
The paragon has more dps, crowd control and versatility (some of the best players consider it a strictly better weapon against everything except warlords), while the gunslinger deals more damage per shot, burst damage and can be paired with other primaries.

The suggested buffs include increasing the camper’s magazine size significantly (could honestly double it, straight up) and making it match the gunslinger damage (if anything just to give a bit of logic behind the damage numbers).

  • CR-9 Suppressor

Currently this weapon, bayonet aside, is a worse scorcher in every way: lower damage output, doesn’t set on fire, smaller magazine and slower fire rate.

The best way to buff it would be to massively increase the magazine size, allowing it to actually suppress enemies.

A magazine size of 30-40 would make it a worthy rival to its plasma-based counterpart.
Alternatively a mini-stun effect akin to the SMGs would be worth considering.

  • AC-3 Arc Thrower

Niche weapon, worst weakness is how it struggles against tanky enemies (like butchers).

I’m not sure how this could be fixed just by tweaking numbers, but the best solution would be to have the weapon strike already-struck enemies multiple times if few targets are in the area.

Adding the option to cancel firing the weapon by meleeing would be a huge quality of life change.

  • AC-5 Arc Shotgun

Also a niche weapon, yet even players who enjoy the arc thrower tend to be critical of the arc shotgun.

The least intrusive change i can suggest is to let the players move faster (same as if they were using the double freedom) while charging, making it easier to connect shots.

The ability to cancel firing the weapon by meleeing would be very welcome.

  • Heavy armor perk

Currently it’s hard to justify picking this perk over other options as often enough it won’t let you tank more hits than usual and the decreased movement speed is a deal breaker.

Increasing the minimum amount of armor provided would be a very interesting way to buff it.
Adding stronger side/back armor would also be a compelling change, allowing divers to turn around when about to take damage in order to further mitigate it.
Removing the speed debuff would be a neat improvement, but i feel like it’s not what the perk needs.

  • Strong arm perk

While it has been recently buffed with what looks like a flat +50 damage buff, this perk still remains underwhelming when comparing it to other popular choices like autoinjector, cardio accelerator, displacement field and stratagem priority.

It’d be interesting if the perk further improved melee damage when using a bayonet, or if it let players run while holding items (like a blackbox), even if a reduced speed.


Other changes (changes some players may disagree with)


  • FLAM-40 Incinerator

While it just received a fairly significant buff, it’s still a weapon that strikes me as oddly weak, despite the praise it received from the community after the update.

The damage of the incinerator is still mediocre at best (400 dps including fire DoT) and the fiery puddles don’t add much to it, while also causing enemies to split apart.

The fiery puddles can be used as a way to prevent enemies from moving through chokepoints, but i’ve haven’t had much luck with it (the puddles spawn too infrequently while swiping to seal off the perimeter), plus it’s yet another hazard for teammates.

It does at least set behemoths on fire, thus letting us kill them in 32 seconds, but that’s still strictly worse than the tox against bugs.

I would like to see an improvement to direct damage.

  • Precision call-in perk

I know some people do use this perk from time to time, but i’ve yet to see anyone actually use it (other than accidentally picking it instead of stratagem priority as they look similar and via random loadouts) and i’ve rarely, if ever, considered picking it myself.

I’m not sure how it could be buffed.

  • SMG-45 Defender

Some players, mainly on console, argue that the defender makes for a better CC weapon compared to the knight.

However, it’s undeniable that the knight’s stats are either equal or better compared to the defender in every way.
If someone can handle the higher rate of fire by tapping it’s possible to stun an enemy for longer thanks to the bigger magazine size and it’s also possible to deal twice as much damage if the need arises.

Personally i would like to see the defender buffed to make it a better crowd control weapon, for example via unstoppable rounds or slower RoF and higher damage (making it more ammo efficient to stun enemies with).

  • DBS-2 Double Freedom

While a very fun weapon, it’s generally not amazing from a purely pragmatic point of view.

The only change i’d like to see would be to add enough punch to the weapon to let it kill a group of cyborg squadleaders consistently from point blank, as usually 1-2 of them survive and manage to sound the alarm.

  • A/GL-8 Launcher Turret

An amazing turret when it works, providing the same fire support the obliterator would, but often time it does not work: when enemies get too close to the turret it’ll stop firing, even at secondary targets that would be in range. This doesn’t happen with all enemies, weirdly enough, which makes it sound like a bug.

One solution would be to have it ignore all enemies that get too close.

Another solution that only relies on number tweaks would be to increase its armor by a whole lot, allowing divers to kill enemies that get too close without destroying the turret in the process.


  • Mod support

Not a balance change, but it’s something people would absolutely love, just thought it’s worth suggesting while i’m here. :wink:


That’s it, i hope this list turns out to be useful in some way, hopefully a chunk of the proposed changes make it to a future update! :slight_smile:

Thank for for reading!

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i have contacted Arrowhead for mod support before and they said “It comes down to if the publisher wants to.”

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Good to know it’s a possibility, fingers crossed!

P.s.
I completely forgot to mention it in the OP, but the new saber should definitely be unlockable outside of proving grounds!

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So much yes :+1:

I’d really like it if they severely nerfed the Rumbler. It’s annoyingly overpowered and overused. Hardly anyone uses the Dum Dum, Laser Canon, and Grenade Launcher (though this is used more often than the other two). There’s more to this game than Trident, Rumbler, Static Field, Bubble loadout combo but holy hell you wouldn’t think it playing with most “veteran” level 50’s. Think of the poor greasy weapon designer at Arrowhead who never has his weapon used that he carefully crafted over months while eating his tendies and drinking 12 Monster energy drinks late into the night. I got you dude. I use your laser canon, even when some asshat swoops in at the last second and steals my kill with his rumbler.

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Nah leave these alone. They’re fine. Kimcorpuz was excellent with the Suppressor. I love the Camper and use it regularly (though not as much on lvl 15 borgs). Some people don’t want some overpowered noob guns. This is why some of the more skilled level 50 divers use the Constitution on higher levels…because they want more of a challenge. If more people learned to play this game offensively instead of defensively then they might come to the same conclusion. Offensive playing doesn’t mean hiding behind a static field and blasting warlords with a rumbler. The Suppressor is the hardest ammo loading gun to use effectively and it should stay that way. The Camper is perfect as is, and I actually use it unlike people who don’t and want to change it. Some days it would be cool to have a bayonet on it but then I wouldn’t be able to do my 360 no scope as the mechanics would change. If anything it should be the other way around, the Camper shouldn’t be buffed but the Gunslinger should be nerfed.

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The rumbler nerf has been discussed and received mixed feelings.

I argued that players have essentially no other AT solution that provides similar amount of firepower without using up the backpack slot: vindicators are great but limited in use, demolishers can only be used 5 times every 180s, commando uses the backpack slot, mines can’t be used on reaction.

In the meantime the rumbler is great against all units except IFVs (who need to be hit on the back, finnicky at times), uses no backpack slot and benefits from ammo pickups.

Given that there’s no counterpart i personally don’t think it should be nerfed, at least not harshly.
One such way would be to reduce the magazine size from 12 (4 bursts) to 9 (3 bursts), making ammo pickups give 3 magazines and increasing max magazines to 5.
That way it drops down with 2 fewer volleys, each ammo pickups provides 1 fewer volley and you’ll have to reload more often.

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The issue with the suppressor is that the scorcher exists, dealing more damage, with more ammo and setting enemies on fire.
Unless you can make use of the 5m extra range and bayonet then it’s strictly worse.
When talking to other members of the community this was a shared sentiment across the board.

The camper discussion was a fair bit more heated, but everyone (which surprised me, both people who argued in favor and against a buff reached the same conclusion) agreed the paragon does the same but better (with the niche exception being warlords), which is why the suggestion is in the community-approved list.

Generally those who would enjoy using the camper use the constitution instead, since they both do the same but the constitution doesn’t suffer from the severely limited magazine size.
It becomes quite evident when playing vs difficulty 10-12 borgs as you need exactly 4 hits to take down a patrol, with exactly 8 rounds in the magazine, thus luring players into reloading early.

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If the argument for a weapon to be buffed is that the Paragon is better than it, then most of the weapons should be buffed, including the Sickle which I believe you often praise. The Paragon is just superior. That argument makes no sense and the Camper is also completely fine. I use it often and it’s not a weak weapon.

This makes no sense at all. If people enjoy using the Camper, they use it. Just like I do and many others. I use the Constitution more, but the reason for that is that I feel the Camper is too strong exactly in the difficulties you mention.

I couldn’t agree more with @Bebryx. The problem with most buff lists is that it’s clear to see the issue is not in the gear, it’s in the user. But instead of actually learning how to use the different weapons, they want to go the easy way, buff everything to oblivion and then ruin the game for others too. If you want to use a weapon that feels weaker, just use it in lower difficulties. There’s a reason why they exist.

Before talking about any buffs, the need for some nerfs should take priority. Now that the AT-47 was finally nerfed, the Rumbler is definitely one that needs it. There should be no question about that.

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If you want to use a weapon that feels weaker, just use it in lower difficulties. There’s a reason why they exist.

I guess it boils down on whether weaker weapons should exist for people to use them as a way to challenge themselves or not.

I would prefer a situation where i know whichever weapon i’m picking isn’t meant to be a handicap, in which cases the buffs suggested above would be appropriate.

If the mentality is to keep some weapons intentionally weaker then buffs should only be aimed at outrageously weak equipment, like the pyro, hammer, smoke thunderer and ninja.

If the argument for a weapon to be buffed is that the Paragon is better than it, then most of the weapons should be buffed, including the Sickle which I believe you often praise.

The paragon and the sickle have significant pros and cons, it’d be unfair to say one is better than the other.

The former offers CC, a bayonet and higher burst damage, but chews through ammo.

The latter doesn’t need ammo, has infinite range (which the paragon doesn’t) making it perfect to take care of patrols before they’re even visible, and doesn’t need to reload making it more consistent.

The reason i compare the paragon and the camper is because they fit the same sniper niche.

I use the Constitution more, but the reason for that is that I feel the Camper is too strong exactly in the difficulties you mention.

The two weapons have comparable damage (450 COM vs 415 due to AP arounds) and have the same hits to kill against all cyborg infantry units.
The constitution fires slower and needs to reload each bullet individually, but has a lengthy bayonet and more ammo, plus doesn’t waste bullets by having to reload prematurely.
The faster RoF of the camper is offset by having to land precise hits as it’s unlikely you’ll often be firing in full auto to feel the difference between the two weapons.

Saying the camper is significantly stronger than the constitution in that scenario wouldn’t seem fair.

I’m not saying the camper needs huge buffs, just enough to make it a compelling option among its peers.
Which is why i suggested doubling magazine size (while keeping max ammo the same obviously), which keeps the weapon essentially unchanged while letting players who don’t hit every single shot on reflex to take down 2 borg patrols without having to reload in between.

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It’s not just anti tank it clears the map with ammo left over to spare. It’s more over powered than the shredder and with no cool down time (times four other divers with rumblers and you may as well be picking your nose in between shots). Do you really need all those volley’s AND for it to poison as well (which kills more divers than enemies)? The only other stratagem that’s even more boring to play alongside is the AT-47 on RS. The reason why it receives mixed feelings is because it’s the go to anti tank solution for people that seldom if ever use anything other than the rumbler. Who cares if a backpack slot is taken with commando or recoilless rifle. Learn to dodge, use red stratagems etc… I’ve been playing this game since the beginning and used to be a rumbler dude. It’s easy and boring…and that’s fine if that is the way people want to play, but I tend to kick them if I am hosting because I don’t wanna be bored. It’s ok sometimes but provides little challenge. It’s pointless to even gripe about it because Arrowhead won’t nerf the main AT weapon of 90% of divers…which is exactly the reason why they should nerf it. The point is there are other secondary weapons and other strats you can use that readily fills the role of anti-tank. Saying that their is no solution means people haven’t fully explored or attempted to improve their use of other strats.

Weaker is better. I don’t know how long you have been playing or how often. I play nearly every day and have since the beginning. For me I enjoy the finesse more than brute force. This game is amazing in that it accommodates this in a way that allows you to develop as a player (I started out as a mech dude much to the annoyance of other players). So making everything overpowered would ruin it.

I disagree the camper and constitution are wholly different weapons in use. Melee is the reason why most use the constitution. It’s basically a sword that fires bullets. Camper is a true sniper rifle. It’s perfect as it is. Only sniper that I ever felt could use a larger magazine size is maybe the railgun…but I’m used to it as is and count the shots.

This. Any serious player knows that it is always this. Not the gear. Nerfs before buffs!

I said a weapon that FEELS weaker, not that it IS weaker, and by that, I meant that it feels like that to YOU. Maybe you should take a step back, learn to use the weapon effectively and only then attempt to do higher difficulties. Different weapons have different learning curves and they also have their places where they are strong, which is not everywhere.

You seem to miss the whole point here - if others say they do completely fine with the things you say are weak, could it be that the user is the reason, not the weapon?

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I was expecting negative replies from the most hardcore players, but i was hoping for more constructive replies to be honest.
I’ve put a whole lot of effort and time in making the list, making sure the vast majority of the community would agree with it (at least for the first part, the second part is mixed), offering suggestions that can hopefully be implemented with ease with reasonings for each of them.

The argument of “the weapons are good, you just suck, get good” doesn’t really apply when the community as a whole backs up the changes (plus i’m rank 35 with >150h, i’m not a super hardcore pro gamer but i’m not a newbie either).
I’m well aware i’m merely a random player asking for buffs, which is why i did my best to collect community thoughts before posting.

Picking one change you don’t like, throwing shade on me and the entire list, then pushing your own agenda is not a healthy way to approach the discussion.
There’s no way everyone will enjoy all of the changes, that’d be impossible to achieve, but do keep in mind the community at large would welcome the above changes.

I’ll reply to the previous comments, however please try to avoid steering this thread into an endless debate.


Do you really need all those volley’s AND for it to poison as well (which kills more divers than enemies)?

It’s rare for players to be hit by the toxin effect but not the explosions, but i guess you could remove it and not many would complain.

Who cares if a backpack slot is taken with commando or recoilless rifle. Learn to dodge, use red stratagems etc…

It matters a fair bit, a SH20 or jump pack can be very useful to bring with you and if you’re already using an ammo-based weapon then you can resupply the rumbler too.

Should also note that i rarely use the rumbler, i’m mostly into demolishers and red stratagems (with the sickle). I have no benefit in defending the rumbler.

The point is there are other secondary weapons and other strats you can use that readily fills the role of anti-tank. Saying that their is no solution means people haven’t fully explored or attempted to improve their use of other strats.

Keep in mind that’s not the point i’m making. What i’m saying is that there are no other ammo-based weapons that keep the back slot empty while offering AT capabilities other than the rumbler.

What the rumbler does is allowing players to bring more of what they like, rather than what they need.
It may or may not be overpowered, but that versatility plays a big part in the weapon’s popularity.

I disagree the camper and constitution are wholly different weapons in use. Melee is the reason why most use the constitution. It’s basically a sword that fires bullets. Camper is a true sniper rifle.

Yes the two feel quite different to use due to the unique reload mechanic of the constitution, making it a bit harder to use.
Yet both are “true snipers” in the sense that both are pinpoint and kill the same targets with the same number of hits.

Only sniper that I ever felt could use a larger magazine size is maybe the railgun

ò.ò “Weaker is better” “nerf before buffs!” and then a random railgun buff suggestion? I’m perplexed.

I said a weapon that FEELS weaker, not that it IS weaker, and by that, I meant that it feels like that to YOU.

A weapon can both feel and be weak, look at the ninja.

You seem to miss the whole point here - if others say they do completely fine with the things you say are weak, could it be that the user is the reason, not the weapon?

I guess i should point out once more that all these topics have been discussed with other community members.
After one heated discussion (which devolved in other members trying to get through your thick skin, fittingly enough) i decided to remove (or move to the second list) all suggestions that weren’t universally agreed on.

I know you hold a grudge against me, but i’m sure you too can see the irony in that statement. :slight_smile:

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Most of the community is newer. What Mikasa and myself are saying is that if you keep playing your approach to this game will change. While lvl 35 shows a lot of work many of the players that have been around awhile have multiple accounts that are at lvl 50 (I have 5 total). So I’m not trying to be rude but it’s similar to if a lvl 10 came in and told you you have to change aspects about a game that they’ve been playing a relatively short amount of time just to make it easier on themselves. I get your gripe but maybe you can see how it becomes a testy issue. When HD first came out lvl 12 was the max level mission and was seen as extremely difficult to solo. Now it’s easy to solo while getting 3 stars for myself and others who have been at this awhile. Retaliatory Strikes were “impossible” to solo on lvl 12 cyborg…now my self and others are able to do this and using varying stratagem combos…watch any Kimcorpuz RS video on youtube to see the different ways. I’m very close to soloing lvl 15 cyborg RS and Mikasa has already soloed lvl 15 Illuminates. The point is- play the game long enough and you will alter how you play it; instead of coming in and trying to get the gang together and changing things to make it easier on yourself.

I don’t NEED a railgun buff, I said that was the only sniper I felt could use a buff out of the three (if I had to pick one). It’s fine as is. I would prefer a fast reload stratagem perk over any changes to weapons.

Look at it this way: if you buff things as you say, you will ruin the game for many of the players who have played a lot longer. Would you agree that the game should have fun stuff to use for all players - both new and old? Should it only do that to you? Even you say it yourself, you’re mainly using the Sickle, so how can you even give a neutral verdict on the rest? Because you have checked the numbers? The reality is much more than just numbers.

I still remember how in the beginning I felt many weapons were weak. I had no idea how wrong I was. Instead of asking for buffs I wanted to learn to use them. That also gives you much more longevity with this game as it really takes time to master them all.

Because the SMGs have been criticized so much lately, we tested all three of them with @YOPG with the same loadouts in two different conditions: Illuminate 15 and Cyborg RS12. Yes, the Knight was the best of them, but surprisingly not as much as people think. The Defender and Ninja both were very close and both took the second place depending on what we played against.

For example, the Defender and the Ninja were able to sustain a defensive battle against the Council Members much longer than the Knight, which is where you let the red stratagems do their work. The Knight won’t have enough firepower to rival the reds anyway. There are different angles to look at them.

I soloed Illuminate RS13 which is by far the hardest thing in the game. I used the Trident and it wasn’t because of the damage it does. It was because of its defensive abilities so I could keep the insane Council Member orb onslaught in check. You don’t see that from the numbers, yet it was the best gun for that situation.

I know you base your opinion purely on numbers and often say how the Sickle is superior, so please try it there and let me know how it goes. Based on numbers it should be easier, right? The reality might just be completely different. I really hope you see the point I’m trying to make here.

Don’t make it sound like this is universally agreed upon. The vast majority of the community hasn’t even taken part in this discussion.

Based on that comment it seems like it’s the other way around. You don’t want to listen to anyone saying differently even if they have played multiple times longer than you have. Sometimes the answer really is to get better in order to understand the point. It’s not being rude, it’s the truth. I went through that, Bebryx said he did too and I know many of the hardcore veterans have done that too.

Those buffs would actually ruin the game for yourself if you keep on playing the game much longer. The beauty of this game is the insane depth it has, and one of the best experiences is learning to be effective with something you considered weak.

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Would you agree that the game should have fun stuff to use for all players - both new and old?

This goes back to the earlier point on whether we should want weaker items for more experienced players or not.
The above suggestions are made with a desire to have all items perform in a comparable way, but if we want to keep some of them intentionally weak then we can at least focus on the ones that are far below average.

Even if all changes were applied, you’d still have the liberator, constitution, punisher and arc weapons would still pose a significant challenge.

Even you say it yourself, you’re mainly using the Sickle, so how can you even give a neutral verdict on the rest? […]
I used the Trident and it wasn’t because of the damage it does. It was because of its defensive abilities so I could keep the insane Council Member orb onslaught in check. You don’t see that from the numbers, yet it was the best gun for that situation.

While yes, the sickle is my overall favourite pick, it’s not the only weapon i use regularly and yes we all do have biases.
For example i specifically praise and prefer the trident based on situation (like you did in the illum RS13), such as when dealing with bug patrols is a priority (ex: stealth runs).

I do my best to compare items and weapons that fit the same role, for example i’d compare the liberator and the patriot, or the suppressor and the scorcher, but i wouldn’t compare the justice and the sickle.
I also try to take into consideration the skill ceiling of whichever equipment i’m evaluating, for example i suck with the commando but it’s nowhere to be found in the list.

Because the SMGs have been criticized so much lately, we tested all three of them

It’s cool that you did, but the players involved can probably pull the same mission off using melee only, saying they were very close speaks more about the players’ skill more than anything.

The knight, defender and ninja can be compared as they all are fairly precise, one handed, have limited range, have multiple small magazines.

The defender trades 15 armor penetration for mini stuns with the ninja, while the knight has identical stats to the defender, but 50% extra ammo (50->75) and double the fire rate.
On controller it’s hard to tap-fire with the knight, making the defender more apt at crowd control despite the weaker stats, if the goal is to keep enemies in place for red stratagems to strike, then tap-firing the knight would be more efficient.
This is why the defender is in the second list.

The ninja, despite losing its crowd control for more damage, merely (almost) matches the liberator (similar firing pattern, but more range) in terms of dps.

I’m not sure which situation would make the ninja shine over its direct competitors or other weapons.

The vast majority of the community hasn’t even taken part in this discussion.

Fair enough, my reach is limited.

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Basically what you’re saying is that you wouldn’t trust an extremely experienced and skilled doctor because “he could probably save you with his bare hands only”, rather you’d trust someone who is fresh out of medical school? I can’t even begin to understand the point of this, it’s just nonsense.

Keep in mind that when we tested them, the skill level of the players stayed the same for each weapon, therefore making it a fair comparison. We both also reached the same conclusion. The more experienced you are, the more likely you are to know how to use them in the most efficient way.

See, you are again just looking at numbers. Can you see from them that the Ninja fires so fast that it makes the target, for example a butcher, twitch so much that it’s close to the effect of mini-stun? This is the reason why I don’t think you can understand - you just look at numbers, I’m trying to tell you what actually happens in-game.

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You saying the ninja is a good weapon is not unlike an extremely skilled surgeon saying a drill is a perfectly fine piece of medical equipment for surgeries.
May be true for the skilled surgeon, may not be true for the average surgeon.

That’s the point i’m making.

Can you see from them that the Ninja fires so fast that it makes the target, for example a butcher, twitch so much that it’s close to the effect of mini-stun?

Does the damage animation actually slow down butchers or prevent them from attacking?
I don’t usually stand in place while butchers are in melee range, so i really wouldn’t know.

I’ve had a few close calls where i was moving backwards while firing and they chopped at me once or twice, i did notice the twitching animation i think you’re talking about, but i haven’t noticed any difference.

you just look at numbers, I’m trying to tell you what actually happens in-game.

I compare numbers when dealing with similar weapons, in this case i think it’s fair as all 3 weapons are pretty much the same but with minor variations.
But yes i did play with each of them in preparation for the list and, at least for my setup (as i can easily tap fire), the knight had no competition between the three weapons.

Generally when thinking about whether a piece of equipment should be buffed or not i like to think about a scenario where it excels above most other options. If there is one and if it’s not too specific, then that equipment is balanced.

For example if we consider the trident, i’ll look at scout bugs, popping bubbles and close range enemies in general, making it quite good.

I look at the justice and i see it would excel against enemies lined up like grotesques, butchers, bug elites. nice.

Railgun deals very high damage in a line and can immobilize most enemies, very neat.

The ninja…can…i mean…it can sometimes be marginally better over the peacemaker when carrying blackboxes? Ehh not impressive…?

I disagree with ca. 50 - 60% and I would absolutely support if the suggestions I agree with were to be implemented into the game, but I’m also not happy with it being called a Community balance change wishlist (well, I guess it apllies to a small community…?); there already is a whole thread for these type of suggestions and I really do not see the point of making another one.

But don’t take this the wrong way, because I appreciate the fact that you are passionate about the issue of gamebalance in Helldivers and I don’t think you are entirely wrong.

It has been suggested to you, in very strong words, to change your outlook on the game, and I think it’s true that your outlook will actually change given enough time with the game.

This has been the case for most of us who have playtimes in the thousands of hours. We now use things that we never would have even considered to use at the start of the game, and the reason for that is simply that we can now subsidize these seemingly weaker weapons and items with our skill.

Some of us have gotten so good that we can use anything and everything in any situation and still do well. Or, at least, not fail horribly.

Meanwhile, many other players, i.e. the silent majority of the playerbase who rarely, if ever, come out to discuss things on the forum or discord or subreddit and who simply want to feel like badasses as easily as possible, have remained in arrested development (hey, that’s the name of that one show!) by using only a few very specific items - items that are easy to use and extremely powerful - and it seems to me that this whole discussion here stems from an irrational fear that buffing a majority of weapons and items across the board will rob people of the chance to one-day become a super-cool elite veteran who can achieve greatness with anything they use.

But the truth is that AHGS are not going to listen to you, or Mikasa, or me. Not exclusively, I mean.

They may take all our suggestions into consideration and then go on and look for more suggestions from other people, in other parts of the Helldivers community.
But in the end they will do whatever they feel is right for their game.

@Mikasa2

Look at it this way: if you buff things as you say, you will ruin the game for many of the players who have played a lot longer. Would you agree that the game should have fun stuff to use for all players - both new and old? Should it only do that to you?

The recent AT-47 nerf ruined the game for a lot of people that were playing it for a very long time, and both you and I and others have cheered when we learned of this buff, but we are only a small part of the community. We don’t exist in a vacuum and there’s more than enough players who have never heard of you, or me, or Yopg, or Lune, cusman, otra_elv, redwilier, Lein (just to name a few), and they don’t care about Illuminates 13, or Cyborgs 15, or Retaliatory Strikes, or random loadouts. All they care about is that their favourite OP toy is now broken.

But even though I’m happy I can not and will not believe that this is the only way things will always go, because IMO rebalancing some weapons and items in this game will not magically turn this game into A Game for Everyone, and thus a Game for No-one.

Everyone who plays Helldivers™ is already NOT No-one, whether we agree with how they play the game or not.

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