The SH-20 can nullify it, and someone who is used to fighting the Illuminate will hardly give a chance for it to go down long enough to be affected - and you can always shoot the projectiles down. (AoE blast is not a projectile)
I consider confusion to be a little extra kick that catches you if you’re ever off-guard, not necessarily their main weapon.
The only thing that will convince me is a canon-science explanation of how there’s no way to avoid confusion using armor.
Stasis is easy - it’s nanotech-aided static electric fields that shock you through your armor and paralyse you. Plated armor padded enough to avoid corrosion and fire will probably need several tens of thousands of volts to bypass, and that sounds about achievable.
How does confusion work? “Nanobots”? Where do they go through? Even standard issue M1 Tactical armor has no gaps in it. Maybe they go through the chemical bonds of the fabric/leather/rubber? Passable.
This is great, I am 100% behind this, maybe even give melee attacks Piercing and Unstoppable
I guess this is just difference of opinion, but I really don’t think of SH-20 as something that nullifies confusion at all. It’ll take an orb hit for you then recharge. It’s more of a mercy thing, but when there’s multiple orbs flying around in the heat of battle (especially in the boss fight), it’s far from being something where you can just largely ignore orbs just because “I’m wearing a SH-20.”
In the case of shooting the orbs, you still have to shoot them if you don’t want to be mind-controlled (or just avoid them—but you don’t ignore them). When it comes to this hypothetical version of the Heavy Armor, unless I’m misunderstanding something, it sounds like you can get hit by orbs all day, and while you may still take damage, you will never suffer the effects of reversed controls or stratagem inputs. I wouldn’t even put SH-20 on par with that as far as “nullifying confusion” goes anymore than I’d say it it “nullifies Stalker poison”.
I suppose it’s just a matter of how you see things, but that’s just why I see it the way I do. I just think using a perk to completely eliminate the confusion aspect of the Illuminates is way too much, that’s all.
I don’t think any faction has a “main weapon”. I said I think its the single biggest aspect to playing against them, and I do. In other words, I don’t think there’s any other one thing they have that’s more of a staple of them than confusion. Of course, that doesn’t mean I don’t realize they also have walls or stun effects or anything else. I know they have those things, but confusion is a huge part of them. If I’m not mistaken, it’s the only thing they have that’s shared across multiple enemies, except the boss also sharing the stun orbs with Apprentices.
If anything, I think Illuminates can be a little weak, to be honest. I’d hate to see them get “nerfed”, if you will, in this way.
All that aside, I’m not really sure about the logistics either. I mean, I don’t really see why physical armor should stop mind-control—a psychological weapon (or whatever). I’ve always just figured, “Oh it’s a mind power” and never really thought much about it in depth (I don’t think it was ever meant to be). Until today, I’ve never thought of it being a physical thing, in terms of how the actual mind control works.
Yeah, pretty heavy mercy if you ask me, taking no damage and no confusion is incredible.
And no, can’t ignore them absolutely, especially if you’re close to teammates, but it is an incredible safety net.
Unless I’m misremembering, orbs hit very hard. With SH-20 you’d be lucky to survive two. With hypothetical Heavy Armor, you’d be lucky to manage to get up after just one if there are any other enemies, although you have a better chance at crawling away/reviving your teammates. Maybe I’m thinking of different orbs?
Also do note we’re talking about an experienced player in this scenario.
Stalker poison is definitely nullified by the SH-20. Even if they get a surprise hit on you, you can just bat them away without taking ANY damage, whereas with hypothetical Heavy Armor, you will take considerable damage from the swipe anyway, at most two if you have empty clips/mags and you swing with non-bayonet, and that’s already ~3/5 of your health gone, but no poison.
Yeah, I too see Illuminates as the bottom of the food chain, if there ever were a brawl between enemies then it would be Cyborgs > Bugs > Illuminates, but that’s only because their lack of armor is not compensated nearly enough - which is fine!
I enjoy these tiers. (which I rate on having the heaviest beasts called out to fight, whereas in terms of patrols on Helldive it’s definitely Bugs > Illuminates > Cyborgs)
There are two kinds of orbs: white orbs and green orbs. White orbs are the ones that hit “very hard” but they have no mind-controlling effect, so I was never talking about those (only Council Members and the Great Eye have them—Illusionists do not), but yeah, I mean, since it is Heavy Armor, we’re talking about, heck, it would help even against those too. But anyway, green orbs are the mind-controlling ones, but they don’t hit as hard (2 will down you, and I’m pretty sure white orbs are a 1-hit kill).
I don’t think our criteria for the word “nullified” in this conversation is quite aligned then. I don’t care much about the semantics of what word we choose to use, but the SH-20 will protect you from being poisoned only for as long as it is up. A Stalker (or whatever else) can down your shield and still poison you. The way I’m understanding this hypothetical Heavy Armor to work is, no matter what happens you will not suffer any instance mind-controlling. That is what I mean by “nullifying”. Not just being a guard against it or taking the first hit for you—it removes mind-control from the game for you as long as you have it on. Now again, I don’t care which words we use to describe that concept, but that is fundamentally what I am opposed to.
Part of the the reason why I’m cool with it working against poison is because I don’t think it destroys Bugs (except at the boss, which is something to consider) the way getting rid of confusion destroys Illuminates. That, plus, tbh, it still just doesn’t make much sense to me that physical armor would prevent a mental attack. I feel like it’s more of a “nice bonus to tack on” more than it’s something that actually makes sense. xD
Of course, there’s no real right answer here. I get we’re just theorizing. It’s just why I take the position I do, that’s all.
…Until the Illuminates use mind-control on Cyborgs and Bugs and take over everything. lol
Hmm… you think so? I’d still put Cyborgs at the top, even we didn’t count IFVs (though, I see no reason why we shouldn’t).
I guess now we’re starting to get off topic now though.
Yeah, sorry, I should have written “practically nullfies” since at a high level of play, there is seldom chance for a Stalker to kill the shield.
While it is possible through other damage sources etc, it’s all too easy to melee them as they land or approach you.
I would say that it’s a bit of a stretch to compare the ease of attacking with melee to the difficulty of actively avoiding and shooting down mind control projectiles, but you can’t deny that they bring considerable damage with them, so you can’t really claim that without mind control they are suddenly useless — mind control is mainly a mechanic that makes it difficult to flee/aim at the enemy, and difficult to call in reinforcements. Hypothetical Heavy Armor would then be equivalent to memorising backwards revive and perhaps your favourite offensive strategem, and getting used to moving in the opposite direction for a predetermined amount of time — not too much stolen from the Illuminate mechanics drawer, for a perk that slows you down and can easily be replaced by something much more mouthwatering such as Stratagem Priority.
Overall slowness in a boss fight is quite the boon for the enemy anyway :)
Yeah the more we discuss it, the more I’m drawn to thinking that way, even if confusion immunity does turn out to be a balanced change to the perk.
(I still hold the position that the Illuminate don’t suffer much from losing confusion abilities)
Keeping the off topic as short as possible:
As long as it doesn’t just reverse their inputs, which would also be interesting to see no less. Maybe that’s the best they can do with Helldivers, and they could have greater control over other races?
On my charts, Bugs are at the top for sheer numbers, (it just doesn’t end) then Illuminates for their invisibility and bonus shield, then Cyborg patrols — for they are the loudest and slowest of them all.
The non-alert patrols aren’t factored in, of course.
“The Hounds > Stalkers > Initiates” by a long shot.
Not necessarily, as Stalkers (or whatever else) isn’t always the only thing on the screen that requires your attention. Plus, anything can do the part of the knocking down your shield. The Stalkers don’t have to do that part themselves. But, these are complete hypothetical scenarios with odds and terms that can’t be quantified anyway (“seldom chance”, “high level play”), so we’re just left to whatever our imaginations can conjure up. I don’t know if there’s even a valuable point to be had in this particular part of the conversation anyway, to be honest.
I’ve made no such claims. I said it would take away too much of what makes the Illuminates them. Not that they would be useless. That, and I just didn’t think it made too much sense for armor to block out confusion.
I mean, I already said I wasn’t talking about white orbs (they don’t have mind-control, thus, I have nothing to say about them in this conversation, and they’re the “considerable” damage-dealing ones). So those are off the table for me.
If you mean green orbs, then it just depends on what your definition of “considerable” is. For example, if it means “something that downs you in a 1 hit,” then yeah, I can deny that, but I don’t see the point.
And is one of their most powerful assets, yes. If that’s just something to be disagreed with, that’s fine, but it’s definitely not a matter of me not knowing how the mind-control works. xD
We’re just gonna disagree there. Not really much we can do about that.
When it comes to my actual points, I think I’ve already made them all and am just repeating now, but I’ll wrap 'em up one last time:
Having a Heavy Armor perk that voids confusion takes takes too much away from the Illuminates, in addition to not making too much sense.
Obviously that’s subjective, but it is what I’m saying. I don’t mind if anyone disagrees though.
The off-topic stuff is still interesting and I don’t mind talking about it elsewhere.
While I have many a rebuttal, I feel like I’ve dragged this out enough "^^
We have clearly had different experiences with the game, so I’ll try to make this as relatable as possible:
I will concede that for someone who is inexperienced with Helldiving, hypothetical Heavy Armor blocking confusion would be too much of a boon just for a slowness penalty — yet at this so called, subjective, “high-level play” it makes for a neat safety net.
Therefore, it’s easy to see that it is an unbalanced choice.
You’ve convinced me that it doesn’t make much sense overall.
The term OP is so often used that I find it is meaningless. If your sole objection to vehicular resupply is that it would unbalance the game, I would say that at higher difficulties, the game is not balanced unless the player has access to better strategems.
Higher level players have commented-in gaming situations-that they thought both a 3 player vehicle and vehicle resupply are worthy additions. I happen to agree with them.
New Perk Suggestion,
Small Explosives Perk.
Your character gets a bandolier and hip satchel that replaces the sidearm. In its place you have multiple grenades. The Perk could unlock at higher levels in the guise of standard explosive, later incendiary, and finally smoke.
The number of grenades available would greatly increase above the standard 2, and the full capacity would be topped off with a resupply.
Most likely, this Perk would be attractive to those who enjoy skillfully tossing grenades.
It could be a lot of fun, and for some, a challenge to avoid blowing themselves and teammates up.
In conceiving this idea, the Perk format was considered simply because special types of grenades and sidearms are offered therein.
Because there seems to be a deep concern over technology that is too powerful, I added the possibility of Small Explosives replacing the sidearm. However, this could easily be considered as a strategem, where it functions similar to a Resupply pack, only for grenades.
I have often wished for my character to have access to multiple grenades, especially when deploying smoke, and incendiary.
Whether it is a Perk, or a Strategem, grenade capacity must be increased to at least double digits. If the increase only leads to four or six capacity, it would hardly be worth the slot.
Further, this new category could include a new type of grenade, perhaps Anti-tank, allowing for grenades to have actual effect when used against heavily armored aliens.
I love this idea. My hope for it is that (like in the recent adaption of War of The Worlds) you could activate every grenade at once and throw the whole belt it into oncoming enemies. Maybe the grenades would scatter a bit and blast a huge area at once
Perhaps the PC version is different, but in the PS game the resupply pack does not replenish the 5 Demolishers one gets with the fully upgraded strategem.
Resupply does replenish grenades, hence the desire for the small explosives Perk.
If the Demolisher was capable of resupply, there would still be a place for this Perk, because the Demolisher is only explosive, no stun, smoke or incendiary.
Similarly, there would also be room for this as a strategem.
Look, there is a multiplicity of red explosives strategem choices. Why can’t we have more variety in small explosives choices as well?
Grenades are useful, even in their currently limited form. They require skill to use effectively, and they are quite capable of sending you and your teammates into recall status. Why not extend their applications?
The Play Station version of HD that I play on has no resupply available for Demolishers. It has been tried many times.
Demolishers can be called repeatedly with the requisite cool down period, but they cannot be recharged in any way. Like vehicles, once the ammunition runs out that’s it.
Small Explosives, either as a Perk or a Strategem would fit nicely in between the Demolisher and the current grenades Perk.
What Bug Behemoth means is that the Rec-6 Demolisher enables you to SELF-RESUPPLY from an Ammo Backpack.
You can’t resupply the Rec-6 itself, but if you throw down all charges (so that your ammo count for the Rec-6 sits at 0) and don’t detonate the very last charge (at which point your character would throw away the detonator and leave you with empty hands in your secondary weapon slot) then that counts as you being out of ammo, enabling you to pick up ammo from your own supply backpack.
This little trick is often used by veteran players who build their loadout around the various Grenade and Pistol perks, as it makes it easier to spam these, especially when running solo.